Saturday, October 3, 2009

eternal salvation disposition

"Spiritual maturity is impossible for believers who have come to doubt their eternal salvation. Yet the lack of assurance is a common problem among Christians and those who call themselves Christians."

Charlie Bing

26 comments:

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STlYN5KCiWg

eat the flesh and spit out the bones. for your education

Craig Glenn said...

Hi Anon...i watched Pat from beginning to end. I love what he says about almost everything.. i too hate religion, religion is man made...and is worthless...

i do think he is a little confused though...like...did Jesus really come here 2000 yrs ago...if he is an atheist why does he reference Jesus so often...

also, any atheist today has much to explain...

You see, Hitler was an Atheist...he believed in evolution...he took evolution to its natural conclusion...survival of the fittest...decided a certain race was he weakest and promptly tried to annihilate them...if Pat was a true Atheist/evolutionist he should by all rights agree 100% with what Hitler tried to accomplish..as a matter of fact, he should be actively campaigning for the very same thing now...

if not, then he is not a true Atheist at all...

True Atheists should feel no compassion at all for the weak and used...their only work should be to exterminate them...

Pat seems very passionate about "helping" and "enlightening" all those who are being trodden on and used...so like i said, confused...


Here's another...if we evolved Primordial Soup...everything you see around you is nothing but impersonal matter organizing itself in an impersonal way...who had the right in the beginning to decide what was right and what was wrong...nobody.

so here's the rub...lets say someone came and raped Pats wife and daughter (assuming he has them)and the perpetrator is arrested....would Pat be angry and call for justice...

If the offender was an atheist he would say something like "you left your wife and chld vulnerable..i took advantage of the situation, they were the weaker at the time, i was the stronger, maybe next time you should take better precautions"..if Pat was a true atheist he would have to say "gee, you right, you got me there"...and then hunt for a way to take revenge on the rapist.

You and i both know he would sit in the court room and call for justice to be done...like i said...confused

For your education...

Anonymous said...

"He said he was the voice of God on Earth and that he would reign over God's children until Jesus came."

jesus didn't set up "temple of man" where a MAN lords it over the people - for good or for bad.


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/ap/20091002/twl-us-elizabeth-smart-ef375f8.html

Craig Glenn said...

if you are the same Anon that posted the first comment, then you have some explaining to do, seeing as though you endorse Pat..

Anonymous said...

pat has a healthy understanding of the cause of jesus - which is political and humanistic - no hocus pocus GRACE on the surface but within this teaching, is actually full of condemnation and judgment etc - that's one of the reason why christians are generally intolerant of others and cannot coexist with anyone who do not subscribe to their "faith".

failing to understand that the bible was INSPIRED and shouldn't be taken literally is where it becomes the fodder for deception and illusion.

Anonymous said...

or rather DELUSION

Craig Glenn said...

Sorry, i think you missed the part where Pat called himself an Atheist...you CANNOT be an Atheist and have a "healthy understanding of the cause of Jesus"...the two are mutually exclusive.

ie you cant have your cake and eat it..one or the other....can you imagine Hitler or Darwin having a "healthy understanding of the cause of jesus"....its either or not both and...

Anonymous said...

you can. he understood the humanistic and political message of christ - he might not realized it though.

don't be surprised that many atheists know "god" better than us or see the light better than the typical "out of this world" christians.

like i had said earlier...eat the flesh and spit out the bones.

Pat makes sense- his observations are mostly FACTUAL!

Anonymous said...

"jesus didn't set up "temple of man" where a MAN lords it over the people - for good or for bad."

the catholic church is basically a religious system established on the hierarchy of man - the pope being the "voice of god" of course.

are the protestants any better? not really. the book of revelation alluded that they are in fact DAUGHTERS(off springs) of the Harlot.

they too established the temple with A MAN at the top telling the people what to and what not to believe or DO(the irony of so called "grace").

and Pat described it well because at the end of the day, we all know who became RICH( enriched themselves MATERIALLY AND or IN POWER) and pulled rank(subdued their minds and soul) on the people and throughout our religious history, brought bloodshed,division and basically LIES after LIES,don't we?

you do not fully understand the evil consequences of such a hierarchical relationship yet but make no mistake about it....the bible calls that SIN and anyone who subscribe to this model of governance will bring "death" to its people.

and here is the gist you, and the likes of you will HATE when i say.... if you worship/subscribe/support this hierarchy or model of governance and put a religious MAN over you, you are a SINNER!

Craig Glenn said...

yeah, but at the end of the day, Pat shouldn't care;...he's an atheist...

the first time any atheist said " we need to stand up for the less informed, those that are controlled and used by the stronger, those that are deluded by the religious" he stopped being an Atheist...

True atheists shouldn't care about anything because everything is impersonal matter organizing itself in an impersonal way...

as i said, confused...

the more i read the stuff you write the more i realize i am running out of meat to chew, i am afraid i might start choking on the bones soon....

Anonymous said...

you are wrong. pat cares. he cares enough to make videos and warn others- fact is, we do not know him personally as a person and we shouldn't comment what kind of a person he is - very typical of judgmental and full of condemnation christians.

in fact, he has expressed his humanity very honestly whereas, Christianity CONDEMNS your HUMANITY by calling who you are SINFUL - a serious theological error or interpretation!

Craig Glenn said...

What are you on about?...have you not read anything i have written..."pat cares. he cares enough to make videos and warn others" why?

Atheism says the strongest survive...

If he WAS an Atheist he would be congratulating the religious elite saying ": well done you guys, you have used religion to dominate the idiotic weak. we should take a lesson out of your book"...

to care at all is to have double standards...if he cares, he should not be so proudly calling himself an atheist...otherwise he is a hypocrite...

Don't you get it Anon?

Anonymous said...

try not to detract or score some pts away from the main topic which is, the arrogance of the clergy( the rule of religious elites or anointed)

i am more interested in pat's observation as an atheist than who and what he is or atheism

let's get our fundamentals right here if you want to progress to any other issues.

and the fundamental of christianity is founded on LAWLESS salvation, STRUCTURAL DEFIANT(SIN) and a total disregard of the political implication which THE BODY OF CHRIST REPRESENTED.

christianity(religion) was the cause of world wars and IS THE CAUSE OF CONFLICTS AND THE DIVISION OF THE PEOPLE TODAY!

when your fundamentals are wrong, the rests of its teachings and beliefs become WORTHLESS and DANGEROUS!

friend, you built your life on LIES!

Craig Glenn said...

OK...that's your opinion, granted, you can believe what you want...

but...

the fact still remains...you endorse Pat, who, calls himself an Atheist...now Pat seems to have a sensitive side concerning the weak and exploited, which as far as the term "Atheism" is concerned shouldn't exist...why?...'cause Atheism has its roots in evolutionism...and Evolutionism says the fittest, toughest, strongest, more intelligent, those sharp enough not to be exploited etc survive...

YOU are dodging the issue, my friend...

You are using people like Pat to bolster your argument, when people like Pat have no logical reasoning, proudly standing on their soapboxes condemning the exploitation of the weak....and at the same time calling themselves Atheists...

..its like someone proudly calling themselves Nazi's in Germany 1941 but saying how wrong it is for the Jews to be exploited and used by the Regime ...do the maths, it doesn't add up...

Anonymous said...

(I'm a different Anon) - Interesting comments made...

I could be mistaken, but i'm going to put my neck out there and say that the Anon who seems to be an avid disciple of "Pat" is the same as angry Anon from a few other threads ago...

Either way, a few things i've picked up in this thread alone just confuses me...either you (Anon) are genuinely looking for answers and are picking at Craig's brain (which i highly doubt!), or you enjoy arguing.

You say, "don't be surprised that many atheists know "god" better than us or see the light better than the typical "out of this world" christians."
---I'm extremely confused here. First of all, when you say "us" are referring to yourself as a christian? If so, please tell me what Bible you read.
Secondly, I fully agree with the first part of this statement - I have no shame in saying that i know some un-beleivers who probably do know alot more about the BIBLE than many christians, but to say they know God or can "see the light better", i don't think so.

Don't get me wrong, i agree, most of what the world sees as "church" makes my stomach turn aswell, and sure, it is because of man elevating himself where he shouldn't - all the more reason to become "familiar" with the grace of God?

But wait, there's more. You say,
"you are wrong. pat cares. he cares enough to make videos and warn others- fact is, we do not know him personally as a person and we shouldn't comment what kind of a person he is - very typical of judgmental and full of condemnation christians."

---you've just spun a web and caught yourself in it my friend. How do YOU truely know that Pat cares, if you say "we do not know him personally"? And how can you make a statement that we shouldn't make comments about people when we do not know them, yet your underlying tone throughout this thread is to accuse and tear down someone that you yourself do not know (accusations against Craig, and christians who are "judgmental and full of condemnation", a little hypocrytical if you ask me...)

Clearly you don't understand Christ's teachings (or the grace of God - that must sound like a swearword to you...)! The only time you've referred to scripture is to express your anger and to condemn, the rest of the time i'm reading quotes from people you don't even know...or wikipedia (and again, don't get me wrong, i agree with you that we need to expose those who are perverting the word of God), but since you have already slotted yourself into the "us" category (referring to yourself as a christian), why don't you give us YOUR definition of "the grace of God" (please use scripture to support your answer...if possible).

Am i "worked-up"? maybe a little right now.
Am i judging you? No.
Does it sound like I'm judging you? Maybe, it depends on how secure you are in Christ - The only way you'll feel secure is by beginning to grasp the intense freedom that comes from a true revelation of God's grace - for you!
Because, Anon, whether you like it or not, God loves you intensly, and He wants you to only enjoy a fruitful relationship with Him. All that He has to give you is good and pleasant. If you can't enjoy that truth, then you don't know His grace for you!

Craig Glenn said...

Hey Different Anon...thanks for that.

Personally, i wasn't going to let up on "Pat the Atheist".

Anonymous said...

let i had said earlier(in my first post) said...eat the flesh and SPIT OUT THE BONES(in regard to Pat's rant - i know it will come to this argument).

in general, i understand where's Pat coming from. he is basically a realist and a rational person. if you are like him, you will have tremendous problem with christendom hypocritical,confusing and absurd(without basis) claims or their version of the GOSPILL.

if you sense that i am "angry" (and the many creative adjectives you hurled at me) for SLAMMING CHRISTENDOM or Christianity,so be it.

this is no different from someone slamming financial institutions for committing greed at the expense of the PUBLIC.

that said, don't read too much into what i said about Pat( making him a point of contention and detracting from the real issue which is christianity is IDOLATRY) other than what i had already said.

as for grace vs laws, you have to read it from the political context - jesus has given the best interpretation on grace if you care to listen carefully to his comparison - no hocus pocus and all that spiritual garbage(supernaturalism) from preachers like joseph prince etc.

there is NOTHING supernatural about grace - period.

lastly, when you say something like(and you realized most christians in fact commit the same)...

"Because, Anon, whether you like it or not, God loves you intensly, and He wants you to only enjoy a fruitful relationship with Him. All that He has to give you is good and pleasant. If you can't enjoy that truth, then you don't know His grace for you!"

.....you have COMPLETELY missed the message of christ and fallen into the clergy trappings and that's the reason why....the love of MANY has become COLD!!!! - apart from many other evils that stem from christendom!

Craig Glenn said...

Anonski...Pat is " basically a realist and a rational person. " NOT...

If he was a realist Atheist, he would be hunting the weak and exploited with a rifle not defending and protecting them...

Buddy, forget about your antiChristain rants...and work on your logic...

I know you want to argue about Christianity, grace, law etc...but you lost me when you introduced me to Pat...

if you're going to put links up for me to watch, please make sure the person who is calling me a hypocrite is not one himself...


from a "deluded proponent of grace"...

Anonymous said...

what don't you people get?

there is NO substitutionary death of christ. christ didnt die FOR YOUR SINS. christ died FOR YOUR SAKE.

if you get that wrong, EVERYTHING that preachers like joseph prince teaches( your past,present and future sins are forgiven is garbage) on grace is rubbish!

that serious error has turned many into spiritual zombies!

that's why they talk in the THIRD PERSON where repentance, love and justice are concern.

and the result? abuse,corruption, injustices and poverty spread!

is Christianity evil? YES!

Craig Glenn said...

I know you want to argue about Christianity, grace, law etc...but you lost me when you introduced me to Pat...

Anonymous said...

history supports what i say. there are plenty scriptural references, too long to include here, that support what i had said.

grace supporters need to relook afresh from how jesus addressed legal control(laws) over the people( or abuse of the legal system) - religious or otherwise

in the beatitudes of jesus, he showed another way of fulfilling the rule of laws.

the rule of laws was and still is a powerful tool to SUBDUE the masses(religious or otherwise).

many of these institutions have abused the rule of law to create class division and favor the elites(religious or otherwise).

on issues such as murder, adultery,divorce, dealing with enemies, oaths etc, jesus took the gracious approach rather than imposing legal requirements dogmatically.

read his laws vs grace carefully. there was NO HOCUS POCUS or GOD WILL PERFORM THIS IN YOU OR FOR YOU blah blah or any of the supernatural stuff.

in fact, the grace of jesus is ACTIVELY COMPASSIONATE as oppose to those who sit in their ivory tower(temple of man) telling you ALL HAVE BEEN ACCOMPLISHED BY JESUS and you just need to receive rubbish.

his ways breathe real life to humanity or failings through your ACTIVE PARTICIPATION( i love you in first person not THIRD PERSON)

he gives second, third, fourth chances to those who fail to keep the laws and it requires FAITH and PATIENCE to help this people(NOT WORD FAITH GARBAGE)

Craig Glenn said...

What are you "fighting" against?

Everything it seems...Christianity, Political Movements, Governments, the rich, the elite...

My God, you're the perfect candidate for being the singer of a rock band...

You should try that...

i am privileged to have the words of your songs written on my blog!

Craig Glenn said...

Ok i am being sarcastic...

bless you Anonski

Anonymous said...

what's new? at least you are not like MANY of your brethren(in their blogs) who would murder someone's voice because they don't like what they hear.

mind you, some of these are pastors or leaders of their respective temples.

you only suppressed your natural tendency of disdain against those who do not agree with your ...idols.

Alive at last! said...

Wow anon! I'd love to see you quote some scripture, and provide some context.

Do you only read the Gospels, or do you read the rest of the Bible as well? What about Paul's epistles? What do you think was the message he was trying to convey?

Anonymous said...

Hi all

Been popping in and out over last months and have read quite a bit from both Anon & Craig. Anon please could you just help me to "get your stance off pat" before I try and work out myself "where you coming" from. Perhaps then I will understand "what you are on about". Could I be so bold as to ask some questions as starters so I can then look back and try and fathom what this is all about.
Craig it may help if both you and Anon answer the same questions. Is that ok?

Do you believe in God The Father, God The Son & God The Holy Spirit?
Yes/No
Do you believe that the above same God is the creator of the entire universe?
Yes/No
Do you believe that you were created by the same God above?
Yes/No

Thanks